iSoaker.net :: Soaking the world!

by **isoaker** on Wed May 25, 2005 8:43 am

Just for sake of clarity, I thought I'd push up my personal thoughts and stance on modding and how I deal with modding and homemade threads and articles on iSoaker.com.

Definition clarification:
I only consider true modding as any change done to a soaker with intent to enhance its capabilities. Some soaker repairs also involve some modifications done to a soaker, but I still lump those under Repair since a broken soaker is of no use (apart from a paper weight :goofy:

).

Building a homemade is something different and involved creating something from scratch. Because of that, homemade building has a different treatment here.

I split modding into two sections: performance vs cosmetic mods. At present, iSoaker.com has some notes on some cosmetic mods on its main pages since these do not really enhance soaker capabilities, only change a soaker's appearance (i.e. Painting and Detailing). Presently, cosmetic modifications appear to be the only type of mod that can be 'overlooked' by manufacturers, though none will ever state they approve of such changes. Performance enhancing mods are another story (these include everything from CVF to K-modding to even just adding a strap). There, sadly, are more inherent potential legal issues surrounding liability when it comes to these types of mods. These other issues (primarily due to liability) are why performance enhancing mods are treated differently and more strictly than the cosmetic ones.

For the Forums:
Most mods, building devices, and such can be discussed amongst members so long as no mods are deemed irresponsible or too dangerous. Mods or creation of actual weapons from soakers or soaker parts is strictly forbidden on these forums. Otherwise, for the most-part, things can be freely discussed unless some future agreement with a manufacturer points things in a different direction (see next section). Discussion of how-to mod and/or build are fine for "The Armoury".

For the iSoaker.com pages:
Mods and homemade articles are being removed for the site to be mod-free in exchange for more links, support, and better collaboration. Modding and building water blasters from scratch are great activities in themselves, but iSoaker.com caters towards stock water blasters and their use. 'tis purely a personal preference.

Other thoughts:
Modding vs homemade water gun building

Modding possesses some inherent dangers in that power modded guns make internal parts experience pressures they were not safety-rated for. This increases the chance of part failure after a mod is done which is why a forced disclaimer is placed on modification pages. There are some obvious benefits to modding, otherwise people wouldn't even bother trying it in the first place, but the risks should also be acknowledged, too.

Home made water gun building is a great way to learn as well as explore how water blasters truly work. As well, one can even create more potent water blasters than what is available as stock soakers. However, both building a homemade soaker as well as using it also possess more inherent dangers than using a store-bought stock soaker. This does not imply that all homemades are dangerous or that stock soakers are perfect and free from flaws. However, as there are more steps involved in building a homemade as opposed to buying a stock soaker, there are more areas where things may go wrong which is also why a forced disclaimer is placed on homemade building pages (though there are currently none, actually, so that's a moot point currently :goofy:

).

Note: I tried to make my thoughts relatively clear, but may find some things weren't quite explained as I intended. I may adjust things after re-reading a few times or if some bring up points that I failed to address. :goofy:

by **wetmonkey442** on Wed May 25, 2005 9:12 am

A very nice article. I enjoyed reading it, and found myself, if not agreeing with, at least understanding your point of view. IMHO, modding will always be an important part of water warfare as the variety of water warriors have different interests and thus different preferences. I find myself moving from stock soaking to modding to homemades in the past year, and personally the overall quality of stock weaponry since 2003 has led me to believe that homemades are the future of water warfare. This year repersents an increase (though marginal) in the quality and performance of store bought soakers. This has only driven me to design even ebtter homemades, one of which will be revealed at SM later this year. I would really like to see the effective range of water weaponry increase from 30' to 60 or 70'. What I would enjoy more, however is to see the original close quarters fun type of fighting still exist. The advanatges of both influence me to at least hope for a continuiance in the way water water warfare has evolved.
Lately I have had the feeling that water warfare has, over time, developed it's own little nook in the hobby market of today.

And when everything is settled, and people know what's going on, and this develops into whatever it was meant to develop into..............I'll still be here :goofy:

As always,

Soak On

Edited By wetmonkey442 on 1117026870

by **isoaker** on Wed May 25, 2005 9:28 am

Well, as I tried to note, I definitely understand and agree with many of the benefits of modding and homemade building. Due to mass manufacturing costs, safety regulations, profit margins, and the need to please various consumer groups, some things just won't find their way into stock soakers that can be done by the home modder. Those willing to mod or build homemades will, and even should, do what they can to get the performance and game play they desire. It's just that for the bulk of society, building and modding are too time and energy consuming. That is why I don't foresee modding or homemades as the true answer to things. We need good performing, acceptably priced, but decently built and designed store-available soakers for the enthusiast with modding/homemades as the option for those who want the added capabilities. Modding/homemades should not be the basis of what is deemed acceptable as this would exclude too many, IMO. Modding/homemades should remain the realm for those wanting more, but stock soakers should be of a calibre that even the modder would appreciate and respect (though could still find ways to improve upon :goofy: ).

:cool:

by **Aquarius** on Wed May 25, 2005 11:02 am

You can count on this, if it doesn't make money, it either won't be produced ever or a manufacturer will soon learn a valuable lesson.

Greater ranges require increased forces be exerted on a given volume of water, in which one will observe higher velocities at the barrel. Laminar flow is preferable to create a stream sufficiently coherent to span the desired range. It also helps if the stream is larger, say 5X or better. Put all these together and it spells potential trouble for eyeballs, eardrums, and other "sensitive" body parts at ranges typical of everyday summer water fights.

The last problem of course is simple marketability. A few years ago it was learned that water guns greater in price than $20 sold much, much worse than their less expensive counterparts.

Now, if there was sufficient interest, I could see part of the industry shifting to a paintball-style focus, complete with more powerful, more expensive guns, and associated safety gear. THAT would be neat. :bm2700:

Edited By Aquarius on 1117033569

by **isoaker** on Wed May 25, 2005 11:13 am

Now, if there was sufficient interest, I could see part of the industry shifting to a paintball-style focus, complete with more powerful, more expensive guns, and associated safety gear. THAT would be neat.

I'd agree things would be neat if more powerful, safety-equipment requiring soakers were available for the 'older' crowd to enjoy in an even more sport-like environment. The other catch, though, is that unlike Airsoft and Paintball guns, a harder hitting soaker is just much more easily abused and used for non-soaking things since it can be easily loaded with a variety of unpleasant-to-toxic liquids. Sadly, there will undoubtedly be some moron out there to do something irresponsible and bring to light the danger in a way the media would try to blow out of proportion. Even if just water were used, another may intentionally or not bring along one of these upgraded water blasters into a 'normal' water fight and end up injuring another as they didn't account for how much water can actually hurt/damage. Ideally, the idea is great and something I've often dreamt of. More realistically, I fear abuse of such blasters and eventually an even worse problem facing the normal water warrior if even stricter safety standards and regulations end up imposed on the water blaster manufacturing sector due to abuse of the higher-powered blasters. Pushing for blasters that require safety equipment to use is something I still lay undecided on due to the potential fun, yet potential dangers of such devices.

:cool:

by **Aquarius** on Wed May 25, 2005 12:10 pm

The other catch, though, is that unlike Airsoft and Paintball guns, a harder hitting soaker is just much more easily abused and used for non-soaking things since it can be easily loaded with a variety of unpleasant-to-toxic liquids.

This applies to anything capable of rendering a stream, not soley water guns, much less just high-caliber ones. Additionally, one needs not range and power when the mobile phase itself fulfills intended purposes. For that matter, a balloon could be used. Such substances would pose a danger to the user that would only increase with the power of the blaster.

Even if just water were used, another may intentionally or not bring along one of these upgraded water blasters into a 'normal' water fight and end up injuring another as they didn't account for how much water can actually hurt/damage.

There could be no mistaking a rugged, high-caliber blaster with a toy. It would soon be evident that something/someone was out of place.

This all makes sense whereas abuse and criminal activity generally do not. Obviously there would be regulation concerns, as there are with airsoft and paintball. Let's not forget common sense. :bm2700: :blazer:

Edited By Aquarius on 1117037557

by **isoaker** on Wed May 25, 2005 12:25 pm

Let's not forget common sense.

For most, common sense applies. It's just for the few that seem to neglect it that I worry about.

The abuse for anything rendering a stream is true. However, stronger water blasters would likely be more accessible and portable devices for creating streams than, say, power washers. Sure balloons could also be used, but the more involvement in filling and aiming makes water blasters a potentially more attractive device to abuse.

Again, I don't want to appear as a worry-wort or stick-in-the-mud about wanting future higher-calibre water blasters. I just have concerns that feel would need to be addressed somehow. Of course, manufacturers would have to see a viable market for such a thing.

:cool:

by **SharpObjects** on Wed May 25, 2005 12:40 pm

All of this makes plenty of sense. Besides, there is SSC for modifications anyhow. I like to keep mine stock, just because sometimes I play with little kids under the age of 9 sometimes. I don't want a lawsuit against me because my K-modded 1000 nearly drowned a kid. Anyhow, I don't think this is the site for mods, a general information site with a huge review database.

~SO
:cool:

I think, i'm a cool guy....

by **isoaker** on Wed May 25, 2005 1:11 pm

Besides, there is SSC for modifications anyhow.

Actually, that's something I (and I believe also Doom) may want to dispell. SSC is good for more than just mods/homemades, though it definitely has more information available regarding mods and homemades than here. At the same time, unless I'm put in a position to make a choice regarding manufacturer support, I don't want iSoaker.com to appear to be mod/homemade unfriendly, either. Granted, the strength of this site is undoubtedly the review/stats database.

:cool:

by **SharpObjects** on Wed May 25, 2005 1:28 pm

Of course, I ment its just I wouldn't usually go to SSC for reviews, even though it has some excellent reviews, I like to go there to see how to make a CPH or what I can do to excel the performance of a soaker.

Although with the lack of good CPS line, I'd be afraid to mod at this point to mod any classic CPS soaker.

~SO

by **Dacca** on Wed May 25, 2005 3:06 pm

I think we're getting a little off topic now. But IMO if safty is an issue then the soaker industry will keep making soakers the way they are. the point to modding a blaster is to make it better and preform above and beyond what it was built to. If you want something thats more intended for warfare and not for fun everyday soaking then go an mod away. :cool:

by **emperor_james** on Wed May 25, 2005 3:25 pm

You have several good points here. While I disagree with your stance on modding and homemades, I agree that at least for this site good relations with the manufactorers are preferable to the mods section of the forum.

by DX on Wed May 25, 2005 4:33 pm

I understand your views and points, even though disagreeing somewhat with your stance on modding/homemades. Safety concerns are really not as serious as the press makes them out to be. Modded guns are not very dangerous, thumb cuts from an akward shaped grip area will hurt you more than even a valve giving way from an overpumped 21K. The blown valve only gets the user wet, but it sounds scary enough. The main reason I see modding and homemades as the future of soaking is due to the manufacturers themselves. As quality started going down in recent years, the stats were no longer cutting it. For those who are not young kids and want challenging tactical battles, enhanced stats bring it to a whole new level. Since the big companies have shifted their target age group, the need for profits eclisped the need for quality. The little kids may be satisfied, but those left out have to turn to something to recover that lost quality. It is the manufacturers themselves who create the need for mods and homemades, IMHO. While it would definately be best for Isoaker.com to maintain good relations with the companies, not all sites have to maintain such relationships. SM for example is completely independent of the influence of all commerical water gun companies, and remains a safe haven for the modding crowd. Then again the focus is different, with a mix of tech, wars, and media, not the best in eyes of the manufacturers, but SM cators directly to the people and is responsive only to their wants. It is also influenced by the admins, both us pretty active modders! :laugh: Anyway, some say that modding/ building homemades is time consuming and doesn't generate much new interest in organizing wars, but much of my team wouldn't even exist without them. High tech is what brought many of them in, and what keeps interest in the team strong. In addition, the k-mod takes 2 hours at the most, a nozzle mod takes 15 minutes, a paintjob takes 15, a check valve freeze only takes 5. Most of the time involving the building of homemades is spent in the store gathering the parts. :cool:

by **isoaker** on Wed May 25, 2005 4:42 pm

It is the manufacturers themselves who create the need for mods and homemades, IMHO.

Uh, not quite. Even if manufacturers were building APH-class soakers, someone would still be looking for ways to improve upon the design. Modders and homemade builders are simply from an innate desire by many to strive for more than what's available. That's just human nature.

:cool:

by **Dacca** on Wed May 25, 2005 5:03 pm

isoaker_com wrote:
Modders and homemade builders are simply from an innate desire by many to strive for more than what's available. That's just human nature.

Stock models are just that. Stock. The better the stock then the better the modded model will be. If the manufacturers came out with a soaker so good that didnt need any mods, sure it would sell like hotcakes (esp if it smelled like hot cakes), but people would still find ways to try and make it better. kinda repetitive and irelivent, just where this discussion is going. :soakon:

by **isoaker** on Wed May 25, 2005 8:35 pm

Safety concerns are really not as serious as the press makes them out to be.

In regards to safety, thing is that there have been stories in the community from members, themselves, who did some dumb things and ended up injuring themselves doing it (one involved over-inflating an open CPS-Splashzooka chamber and having it rupture. The suddenly tearing rubber ended up reportedly slicing a pretty deep gash into this member's arm, I believe). I know the media tends to blow things out of proportion, but I refer to more local things, not media reports. Sadly, there are still too many cases for my personal comfort talking about people who have been sued for even more negligible things and won. Moreover, regardless of suing, I still wouldn't want anyone who does modding to get hurt, thus prefer those who mod to be ones with the capability and knowledge to do it safely such that even in the event of an accident, it'd still be more controlled. Though for legal protection I placed a disclaimer on both The Workshop and all mod-related articles on iSoaker.com, my conscience wouldn't feel good to know if another got injured even if they did something moronic when attempting to perform a mod had I not at least forewarned of the potential risks involved.

I, personally, have nothing against modders/builders who strive to create better blasters. I respect and am quite impressed at many of the ideas and thoughts that go into some things that have been developed over time not to mention some of the creations actually made. However, there's no way I could foresee getting the bulk of those who buy water blasters to get into modding such that they can enjoy an 'advanced' water fight. My primary goals are to get more people interested in soaking in general meanwhile undertaking the task of trying to organize a more systematic approach to water war games. From another angle, IMO, hobbies like Paintball and Airsoft wouldn't likely have the same sort of following if those enthusiasts felt they needed to mod their equipment to get more enjoyment from using them. I have no doubt there are those busily modding their Paintball and Airsoft guns into more potent forms, but the stock Paintball and Airsoft products make the majority fairly happy from what I've seen. As such, I'm still pro trying to get better stock soakers as that makes better soakers available to pretty much everyone.

Again, I don't want to appear to be mod-bashing and any appearance of such is purely unintentional. I'm glad you guys raised some good points and showed some holes or incomplete thoughts in my initial posting. I plan on refining it a bit and making it an actual article for the main part of the website. I'm sure there are those that don't agree with all the points I raised and that's cool, but at least I hope you guys will have a better understanding of my view and my reason behind some of the choices I've made with this site.

:cool:

by **Simmo** on Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:10 pm

If someone makes something idiot proof, there is all a dumber idiot. Public liability has gone out the window in the past few years, people falling off treadmills and suing, suing for being over-weight - a shot in the eye from a soaker looks a fairly reasonable case against the others. Manufactures, websites and forums alike would not like to be held accountable for such issues. (I’m not saying either party has the potential to be held accountable for such an issue.)

I think another important thing to remember is that, if a little kid runs into the local toy store and wants the most expensive gun - usually a super soaker or similar - mother isn't going to take too kindly to forking out the money. Ultimately it is based on sales; the manufactures are looking to make money, like the rest of us.

Reducing performance capabilities reduces cost; suddenly the $15 water gun looks very marketable...

My 2cents worth. Simmo. :cps2500:

by **joannaardway** on Sun May 07, 2006 10:17 am

I don't spend much time here (As some of you may know, I spend most of my time at SSCL)

If you do read SSCL then you will probably know my stance on homemades and modifications.

I have very few soakers which haven't recieved some sort of modification, from straps, through nozzle drills and CVFs, to K-mods.

However, I can completely understand both viewpoints, and more recently, I have more or less stopped promoting modifications, given that I don't want to be the person that made some idiot get a PC lodged in their skull.

My concern with modifications is not the risk of injury, but the increased risk of failure of the soaker. I've had many failures over time, (all of which have been fixed). But I recognise that many others will be incapable of fixing the soaker after a failure, and are more likely to mess up the mod.

Given previous history of potentially injuring incidents, a failing watergun pales in comparision.

I would say that modifications should be approached with care, and you can't blame anyone else - it is them that chose to do it.

Nonetheless I continue to reasearch modifications, and will persist in writing them up, for those that want to try them.

"You only ever try something once"

On other news, I have yet to progress very far with homemades, but have been experimenting. Thus, I haven't quite formed a full opinion of homemades. However, well done, they should be safer than stock soakers.

Logic:
PVC pipe will survive 200+ psi, assuming it's pressure rated. A triple agressor PC cracked open at 100 psi (ok, it wouldn't normally reach that, but a coke bottle could survive better)

by **isoaker** on Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:32 am

Updated from some discussions with both Ben and Silent Guy. Still may be tweaked more in the future.

:cool:

by **Ben** on Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:12 am

The _underground thread was locked before I could post this reply:

As explained at WWC, I think the _underground should stay. I actually check there every few months to see for new additions... the section is appreciated, just small. The only real problem with it in my opinion is how it's presented. The way it is presented definitely discourages people from building by not giving them the idea to build, and overstating the safety issue.

I would be lying if I said that I came to homemade water guns on my own. Most people come to our websites looking for something about certain water guns and then get the idea to build afterward. My main concern is that the lack of exposure here combined with the scary initial presentation discourages people from ever building.

Those who do come for homemade water guns primarily will go to SSC first. Note that SSC has the top four pages on a Google search for homemade water gun. That is 80% of all clicks for that term statistically. SSC has at least the top two pages for homemade water gun related terms, and the top two alone account for about 65% of all clicks.

I'd definitely appreciate the _underground more if the disclaimer page at least acknolwedged that safety problems are extremely unlikely and they can be avoided in ways other than not building. The way it is worded is one sided and makes injury seem inevitable. A lot of people (like me) came into the community looking for manufactured water guns but later decided to try the DIY route, and for that reason the option should be well known and the actual safety concerns should be well known as well, as to avoid them through smart design. There are multiple solutions to any potential safety issue, of course.

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