iSoaker.net :: Soaking the world!

by **isoaker** on Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:34 pm

The following quote is from DarkAnnihilator's post in the Flash Flood thread. It'bs been copied and pasted here to attempt to resalvage that thread while opening a new one for further discussion:

Im just going to post this, and then I will continue on a new thread, if it will be available. Paintball is the wrong concept to take as an example for my idea.Especialy since CO2 on a soaker will not be effectivly possible. I was thinking more of Airsoft like qualities(Spring devision). There are more serious Springer battles than soaker battles. While the spring-mechanism bb has a max range of 120 feet, the effective range is around 75 feet. Also a large attraction of Airsoft is the gun model look. Something Painball lacks since there is no primary attraction to the gun models.
SO as you see distance of 75-80 feet is adequate. And the Riffle/Gun models for that new soaker warfare ideal can reach more new followers by puting great emphises on frame design. Think of it that way: If the BB simulates a bullet, the Water Stream can simulate a Gaus Rifle/Plasma blast.

Finding consumers for this new sport will mainly depend on marketing.

Ok, I used Paintball not because of its technology, but because it has similar gameplay aspects to what you are proposing, thus I don't see what makes it wrong to compare. If you feel more comfortable comparing it to the BB-gun shooters such as AirSoft, that's fine, too.

Thing is, water is a lot more penetrating and messy than BB pellets, not to mention a LOT heavier, capable of knocking unsecure safety equipment off more easily. I'm not sure any company would wish to dive into that realm just because of the potential liability issues. On top of that, BB guns can pretty much only fire BB pellets. Water blasters can fire almost any type of liquid (though most are designed to fail shortly after if something flammable is used).

I'm definitely pro seeing 75'-80' range soakers, but am against the idea of wanting these things to push out enough water to hurt, let alone bruise. To me, while water warfare may be big enough to encompass such a game type, I just don't see it as a good direction to go, especially if someone takes one of the power soakers into a normal water fight.

The ideas are cool and, in a responsible world, it'd be a lot of fun for some. However, I don't think current society is mature enough to handle it.

:cool:

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:50 pm

I forgot to mention that it should be 16+. 18+ on some other models. The bruising was just a side coment. 75-80 feet would still not bruise, but it should hurt enough to not wnat to get hit. Since the frame/model attraction would be a big part of this new concept it is definatly far removed from Paintball. The whole psycology of Painball is different than in AIrsoft, or the new watergun sport concept I am proposing. There are many who collect Airsoft guns just to shoot at objects and have them as collector items around the house. Paintball is just purly game oriented. No actual collector value whatsoever on the different models aestetic whise .

The aspect of Soakerdom I am proposing will be 50% game and 50% collector quality as in realism or aestetic art. Making it more versatile and drawing in a larger mass.

Edited By ANNIHILATOR 2 on 1105574038

by **wetmonkey442** on Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:53 pm

Current society isn't mature enough to handle a lot of things. Just take a look at the TV and you will see just how immature the world (especially America) is. I think that a powerful division of soakers would be a welcome addition to the soaker society along with a organized sport like setting. I believe that the target audience that Hasbro is aiming at now, younger children,isn't the same audience that we want, or are. Sure maybe little kids can't take a bruise from a soaker, and maybe even some people at these forums would be disinclined to play a game that involved bruises, but I think that modeling a larger more powerful class of soakers is just the thing to attract more attention to water warfare in general. As bas as this may seem, humans like violence. We are attracted to it, and I think that making a more violent or hardcore version of a water war might appeal to a larger more older audience, which would spur more attention to people who are kind of in the middle.

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:15 pm

wetmonkey442 wrote:Current society isn't mature enough to handle a lot of things. Just take a look at the TV and you will see just how immature the world (especially America) is. I think that a powerful division of soakers would be a welcome addition to the soaker society along with a organized sport like setting. I believe that the target audience that Hasbro is aiming at now, younger children,isn't the same audience that we want, or are. Sure maybe little kids can't take a bruise from a soaker, and maybe even some people at these forums would be disinclined to play a game that involved bruises, but I think that modeling a larger more powerful class of soakers is just the thing to attract more attention to water warfare in general. As bas as this may seem, humans like violence. We are attracted to it, and I think that making a more violent or hardcore version of a water war might appeal to a larger more older audience, which would spur more attention to people who are kind of in the middle.

Absolutly. Nevermind the absense of Toy Safety Laws since its now in the sports section, but the new versatility of what one could do. Anyone remember that sponge on the 3A? Create a soakable hard rubber sponge in shape of a granade shell, put it into a Launcher add on like this one for your rifle and it will already make it more interesting.

A blend of aestetics and performance in this area is very vital. Like in most sports, its not really what you do, but how you do it. Sure, many soaker users will not like it, but what does it matter. They alreday have their Soakerdom devision so its not for them anyways.

by **isoaker** on Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:20 pm

The aspect of Soakerdom I am proposing will be 50% game and 50% collector quality as in realism or aestetic art. Making it more versatile and drawing in a larger mass.

That can work for or against the concept.

I've never been a fan of realistic-looking weaponry for water fights. I'd rather have optimized soakers meant for soaking than trying to force a soaker into a more gun-like frame. Granted, being a soaker, many do carry gun-type features (i.e. having triggers, nozzles, handle-grips, etc.). However, to be a better soaker, you need good-sized reservoirs, good separate pressure chamber sizes, etc. While not 100% certain, I think spring-based piston mechanisms would have likely been toyed with by manufacturers to pressurize water. Piston seals, unfortunately, also tend to wear out much more quickly (due to being a moving part) than static air or CPS-chambers. Sure the pump is a piston, but it is not under the more constant pressurization that a spring-based soaker piston would experience. It is possible, no doubt, but the cost may be prohibitive.

In the end, I suppose I'm more the guy who enjoys the act of soaking and getting someone wet more than the sport/play 'til it hurts idea. The more potent soaker idea is something I have mixed thoughts over. I see both the potential fun and the potential problems/abusers. As I said, the concept has its merits. If some of the potential snags can have workable solutions applied to it, getting a manufacturer to go for it is a good possibility.

However, if the target audience ends up being aimed at 16+ or 18+, a different board or an age-restricted aspect of this board would be needed in order to discuss its development in a truer form.

:cool:

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:33 pm

I should clarify, I only mentioned spring airsoft for its similar distance of 75-90 feet effective range. The Water Warfare I sugget will still be the good old Airpressure pump power. A spring will just rust. We are still talking about pumping and basic AIrpressure, but in a more colossal PC representation.

by **isoaker** on Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:04 pm

After some thinking, I'm finally finding the words to use to explain what I couldn't before.

75-80 feet would still not bruise, but it should hurt enough to not wnat to get hit.

To me, if a soaker game becomes one in that one fears getting hit due to the impact as opposed to fearing getting hit due to getting wet, I just don't consider it a water fight anymore.

IMO, the most popular sports are the ones that can be played by everyone regardless of age. Sports like soccer, hockey, frisbee, etc. are far more appealing because they can be played by young and old. As one gets older, the games get tougher since your competitors are bigger and more skilled, but the overall game can remain the same. For water warfare, I feel it should go along the same route. I would want to see soakers for kids and soakers for bigger kids like me :goofy:, but would not want to see soakers whose power can make them a problem.

Somehow, the game DA describe I feel would be better suited for high-powered Nerf guns rather than soakers. If being hit is what one wants to avoid, foam Nerf bullets (or even foam bullets soaked in water if water is still wanted) would be more effective. Perhaps DA is still trying to keep some soaker element involved, but I don't see it as an evolution, but rather a mutation. Soakers, to me, are built to push water from one place to another in order to soak someone with no injuries involved. I recall those who proposed using water-soaked foam bats to engage in hand-to-hand water combat which I also consider improper for water fights. Water fights, to me, should remain a non-contact, non-injury game.

IMO, a modified form of SoakerTag using re-useable targets to determine hits would be the way to go for soakers. High-end soakers could use a slight power boost, but not to the full extent DA seems to want to take them. This doesn't mean his concept is bad or shouldn't be done, just not for here.

iSoaker.com stands by the motto: "Leave NO one dry!"; not "Leave NO one unfearful of getting smacked by your blaster's stream!"

:cool:

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:28 am

I understand your concearns isoaker, and in a way the water will no longer be the main primary psycological image of that part of soakerdom. One is still getting soaked. I mean the nozzles can/would get bigger with more larger and potent PCs. So no worry about not getting wet. But the main psycological image will be the gameplay, performance itself and aestetical look. The water will be the tool, but no longer the goal in itself. The actual gun itself and using it, will be the focus and the reward.

While some will find this a betrayal to waterfights, I consider it a re-evaluation of waterfights and at least to me, an evolutionary step of how to fight water battles. Or at least a new fresh branch of water sport that has the best of many other recreation gun/rifle sports. Other people can do traditional soaking, airsoft, nerf and lasertag all at once if they like. But if there is a way to combine some elements, it will be alot cheaper, practical, time saving and versatile than doing much of it seperate.

Edited By ANNIHILATOR 2 on 1105598098

by **isoaker** on Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:19 am

I wouldn't call it an evolution since the premise of water fights, at least to me, is about getting wet and/or getting others wet while trying to stay dry. It is more, as you said, along the lines of a new "branch of water sport". However, whether it "has the best of many other recreation gun/rifle sports" is debatable. Yet, only consumers can judge that and I'm just a lone individual. I'm sure it'll appeal to some, but it just simply falls outside the jurisdiction of iSoaker.com.

:cool:

by **cooldood31** on Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:50 pm

I hated the idea when it first came about. I still hate the idea. People will get hurt, others might leave, soccermoms wouldn't know the difference between the two types of soaking, it's just plain out a bad idea. If you like airsoft so much more, quit soaking and go play airsoft. If you want soaking but with more power, go buy a pressure washer.

If this idea gets off the ground, it will be the beginning fo the end for soakerdom.

by **Shadowstrike Prime** on Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:07 pm

Wetter is Better people, that's all that should matter.

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:26 pm

cooldood31 wrote:I hated the idea when it first came about. I still hate the idea. People will get hurt, others might leave, soccermoms wouldn't know the difference between the two types of soaking, it's just plain out a bad idea. If you like airsoft so much more, quit soaking and go play airsoft. If you want soaking but with more power, go buy a pressure washer.

If this idea gets off the ground, it will be the beginning fo the end for soakerdom.

What does it matter what soccermoms think? Its not meant for their kids anyways.
So I should get lost from Soakerdom and do airsoft,eh? Sorry, but I don't do requests. I do airsoft, and I will remain in Soakerdom trying to reform some stuff. I like the idea to shoot an authentic looking existing or fictional gun/riffle/cannon without having to useing projectiles.

As for a pressure washer, does a pressure washer look like a gun to you? Have you even read my earlier posts above about the elements in the new Soaking concept? I mean perhaps guns are now shaped like pressure washers. For all I know, military weapon designers get their ideas from HomeDepot and the Wallmart gardening section. Im sure to some people nothing enhances soaking more like looking as if they are about to clean up bird crap and mold from walls.
But I ain't one of them.

I'm sure it'll appeal to some, but it just simply falls outside the jurisdiction of iSoaker.com.

I don't know. It might fit in nicely. Its not that much different in basis than traditional soaking. Just more power and realistic design, restricted for the 16/18+ crowds.

Edited By ANNIHILATOR 2 on 1105655209

by **isoaker** on Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:50 pm

I don't know. It might fit in nicely. Its not that much different in basis than traditional soaking. Just more power and realistic design, restricted for the 16/18+ crowds.

It does not fit since the soaking is no longer the emphasis of the game. Water just becomes the means to hit another with a stream (technically, a water stream is still a projectile, though a liquid one, not a solid one), though you had mentioned also potentially having harder-rubber-type grenade-shaped water sponge devices as a possibility. One may argue that SoakerTag is also a game that focusses on removing the targets as opposed to soaking. However, I still see the SoakerTag concept more of a means to objectively determine a soak, not as a game to wash off targets. I have no desire and actually would prefer to avoid realistic looking soakers in water fights. I want soakers to look like awesome soaking devices. As flimsy as it was, the SS50 is a great example of a pure soaker icon. In the first year it was released under the Super Soaker name, it was the most unrealistic looking soaker, especially compared to the Uzis, Beretta, and Colt .45 Pistol-themed battery-powered water guns available. I prefer my soakers as pure soaking devices and not constrained into a mould that doesn't work well for a water blaster.

As I said before, iSoaker.com is about soaking your opponents. I know it doesn't fit iSoaker.com since I presently don't like the concept and would not likely participate in such a sport. Again, this doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It's just not my cup o' tea. I soak purely to soak.

:cool:

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:25 pm

I prefer my soakers as pure soaking devices and not constrained into a mould that doesn't work well for a water blaster.

As I said before, iSoaker.com is about soaking your opponents. I know it doesn't fit iSoaker.com since I presently don't like the concept and would not likely participate in such a sport. Again, this doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It's just not my cup o' tea. I soak purely to soak.

Fair enough. Like I said, its not there to replace conventional waterfights, but it is there to re-evaluate and add to Soakerdom. As for restraining molds, that problem should not be there if it is done correctly. The Frame can se easyly build around most internals. SSCentral homemade section would be the proof that good internals can come in many shapes. And as I mentioned before, realistic looking does not mean the model has to alreday exists in actuality. This opens up ways for many good looking fictional models.

edit: I missed this part when I first read through it.

It does not fit since the soaking is no longer the emphasis of the game.

Like I mentioned before, while soaking is no longer THE main concept, its still one of the concepts. With that power, huge nozzles over 20X will supply good soakage. I also should mention, that "gameplay" also includes just having a good time shooting these power houses by ones self. Unfortunatly with traditional soaking, if there is no one around to fight, conventional soakers become quickly dust catchers.

Edited By ANNIHILATOR 2 on 1105857352

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:17 am

Just to doublecheck isoaker, when I will post about my upcoming project sooner or later, and it would already fit the "Sports Watergun" realm, do you want me to post it in the Off Topic forum, since you mentioned its no longer related to the Soaker realm in your site?

by **isoaker** on Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:20 am

ANNIHILATOR 2 wrote:Just to doublecheck isoaker, when I will post about my upcoming project sooner or later, and it would already fit the "Sports Watergun" realm, do you want me to post it in the Off Topic forum, since you mentioned its no longer related to the Soaker realm in your site?

You can post it where you feel it should go. Depending on what the content is, it can always be moved so don't worry 'bout that.

I should note, however, that this thread's title shouldn't quite be the way it is. I already consider water fighting a potential sport even if just using current stock soakers and SoakerTag-type devices. While something else may also be a sport as well, it doesn't discount general organized water warfare as a non-sport.

:cool:

by DX on Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:53 pm

In my town, anything that remotely looks like a gun is banned. The Tri-state area is definately one of the most paranoid parts of the country. The urban Northeast as a whole holds extremely negative views over guns. If such realistic soakers were produced, they would certainly not be available in this area. A company wouldn't even be allowed to make them. Simple as that. I generally don't care what my water guns look like as long as they are powerful and deliver the desired results. While 20X+ streams shooting 100 feet or more would be cool, that would suck the tactics right out of soaking. I have never been a fan of soakfest style battles and probably never will be. When one is soaked to a certain point, it just becomes pointless. Tactics are one of main reasons I soak. Skill and strategy are emphasized in my wars, in combination with good tech. And how would these mega powerful guns be practical? These pcs would have to HUGE and the guns would have to be heavy. I've been leaning more against commercialization of powerful soakers. If anyone can get these proposed super water guns, then what fun is that? As I said earlier, tactics will vanish from the propsed branch and the elite will become insignificant. And more powerful weaponry could be achieved without such a radical change. Independent people are making more advancements in tech each year. I'm knocking on the 70ft. range door, and Doom might be able to achieve up to 80ft. this year. Large pcs can be made in homemades if wanted, but they remain very impractical due to size and weight. I'm not so sure about this concept. Just my opinion.

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:51 am

Sure its a preference thing. But then again, waterguns as in power and realism are only meant for the 18+ crowed. If it weighs 30 pounds or even 50 pounds, it should not matter to an adult. If it does, then it might be time to work out a little.

Looks to real for the majority of kids? Doesn't matter. Weights to much for the majority of Kids? Doesn't matter. It completly violates child safety regulations? It doesn't matter.
Its the perfect 18+ toy. And if a company would make those, alot of adults would have a nice amusing toy/collectible. To some of us, Realism and Looks are extremly relevant.

by **isoaker** on Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:05 am

Its the perfect 18+ toy. And if a company would make those, alot of adults would have a nice amusing toy/collectible.

I think that's where I don't agree with your logic. Unlike new items or concept products, I really don't consider the thought of making a higher-powered, more realistic looking water blaster something new. However, as I cannot think of any company that has opted to actually make serious headway in terms of developing such a product, I don't think there would be enough demand on the market to make such products worthwhile to make. For a few, realistic-looking higher-powered water blasters may be THE thing to have, but I'd be more than surprised if it flew on a larger scale. IMO, for those wanting a realistic looking gun without wanted to have a real gun would opt for AirSoft. However, if you feel it is worth your while to try to develop this concept,go for it!

I reserve final judgement for when there is something of more substance to judge. For now, I can't say I'm keen on it and I can only hope its attempted development does not lead to undesireable side-effects on the rest of the water warfare community.

:cool:

by **ANNIHILATOR 2** on Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:31 pm

Fair enough. As I said, its not everyones taste. But my argument for believing that "Highpressure fiction/nonfiction Realism Waterguns" or "Hardcore Realism Waterguns" (I might aswell find another name for it than Sports waterguns since we already change the description), would be popular is looking at consumer psycology and consumer history.

The Airsoft market just really existed since the 1970s or 80s, which got mainly started in Japan. From there it became globaly popular. At first most thought it would never catch on, since one could might aswell buy a pellet gun or just basicaly a replica. The reason why I belive it caught on was the psycology of the fanbase. Most of them of course were adults, and played with toy guns resembling these guns as kids. Of course these were primitive and non stylish projectile guns usually shooting rubber projectiles 15 feet or those cork-sound toy guns. And those were fun, which adults would like to re-live, but to an adult level. So a realistic looking relatively powerfull toy gun would be just the right thing as a entertainment and collectible to show off as a room ornament.

If that works for hard-projectile Toy guns, it should work for Water Guns aswell. Same like you isoaker, I already was around before there was the Super Soaker franchise, so its not all about drenching someone. Pre-1992 I used waterguns that reembled real fire arms in shapes and sizes. The pump gun were realisticly scify looking aswell. And it was just amusing to shoot around regardless if you have an oponent or not. What I liked about Super Soaker was its power at the time. Now, its power is no longer special, and its look has no aestetic replica value. Now many adults such as you isoaker still enjoy the Super Soaker franchise. And that great. But for the adults such as I, who enjoyed the realistic old fashioned squirt guns as much as the Soakers, probably now even more, a realistic looking watergun with a severe power upgrade and eastetic collectors value is already long overdue.

I propose this new Water gun Genre as a global franchise, not as a Canada/US franchise. Sure, many places in North America won't sell them, but that should not be the problem of this franchise. Most countries on the globe should not have a problem with this. Most of Europe and Asia shoulnd,'t.

Personaly, and I think it will be just me here, would like the Water Gun realm to change. The Super Soaker gun type is to dominant and already past its prime. I don't even like saying "Soakerdom" anymore since its to one sided.

iSoaker.net :: Soaking the world!

Water Warfare - A Different Form? - ^ title changed from "The Sport?"

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